[Odonata-l] Frog legs and odonates - simplistic answer - Occam
John Acorn
janature at compusmart.ab.ca
Sat Jun 27 06:25:19 PDT 2009
Hi Odesters,
It is unusual for me to post to this list twice in one day, after
lurking for months, but here goes. I enjoyed Hooper's book as well,
but very quickly discovered that many of my colleagues did not. In
particular, my friend the late Michael Majerus, of Cambridge, went to
great lengths to undo what he saw as the damage created by Hooper's
biologically-naive criticisms of industrial melanism. He did not live
to see his rebuttal, based on new experiments with the peppered moth,
in print, but his talk on the subject can be downloaded at
http://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/Research/majerus.htm
The crux of the problem is that anti-evolutionists have used Hooper's
book as ammunition. Do read the book, but also read the criticisms.
The controversy is summarized on Wikipedia at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Moths_and_Men
John Acorn
Edmonton, Alberta
On Jun 26, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Dave Small wrote:
> I second Glenn's recommendation of "Of Moths and Men" A wonderful
> true story account of the Politics of Science. It was at a Focus
> Outdoors Conference (circa 1970) sponsored by Mass Audubon that I
> first heard Ted Sergeant speak about his Underwing Moths! A new use
> for dad's underutilized Beer as baiting Moths became just another
> thing a country kid did to keep himself amused... Tonight's moth
> Blog, A new medium I am trying out for the first time, can be found
> at: http://dhsmall.blogspot.com/
>
> As for the Odonate predation on larval frog legs, I found the story
> to be most interesting. Correctly pointed out is the fact this study
> took place at 3 ponds in England... It would be inappropriateto
> extrapolate this causal effect too broadly. It is just another piece
> of this wonderful puzzle we call nature.. I kind of hope we never
> totally understand it... What fun would that be?
>
> Dave Small
> Athol, Massachusetts
> dave at dhsmall.net
> www.dhsmall.net
> 978-413-1772
> -----Original Message-----
> From: odonata-l-bounces at listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces at listhost.ups.edu
> ]On Behalf Of Glenn Corbiere
> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:32 AM
> To: Joshua Rose; Odonata-l
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Frog legs and odonates - simplistic answer
> - Occam
>
> One of my favorite accounts of oversimplification, and as a
> reviewer, and not just any reviewer, Ernst Mayr, commented, "a
> fascinating account of many, many years of observation and
> experimentation - and of traps" is a book by Judith Hooper (who also
> happens to be from Amherst) called "Of Moths and Men - The Untold
> Story of Science and the Peppered Moth" It is simply a joy to read
> if you love science, bugs, and just plain great storys. Oh, quite a
> bit of this book is about another local scholar, one Theodore D.
> Sargent, author of the difficult to find work, "Legion of Night -
> The Underwing Moths"
> Trust me on this one - get a copy of "Of Moths and Men". You'll
> love it.
>
> Glenn
>
>
> Glenn Corbiere
> 100 Prospect St.
> Chester, MA. 01011-9657
>
> www.dragonhunter.net
>
>
> From: Joshua Rose <opihi at rgv.rr.com>
> To: Odonata-l <odonata-l at listhost.ups.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 11:19:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Frog legs and odonates - simplistic answer
> - Occam
>
> Occam's Razor actually tends to be wrong in many ecological cases.
> Academic science favors oversimplification; everyone wants to boil
> each effect down to a single cause, that being conducive to winning
> grants, getting published, and receiving tenure. Real life usually
> does not cooperate.
>
> The publications I read concerning that chytrid indicated that it
> had been present in many areas without causing any undue harm to
> amphibians; but that other environmental effects - acidification,
> UV, and so on - degraded the amphibian's immune responses such that
> the formerly innocuous chytrid became a threat. To the extent that
> herpetologists carried the chytrid to isolated populations and
> helped wipe them out, if that did take place, it was A cause but
> probably not THE cause. A number of frog populations disappeared
> that had been well known to herpetologists and under study for many
> years before the chytrid reared its ugly head.
>
> Another study indicated that non-native Bullfrogs were carriers of
> the chytrid, hosting it but not being killed off by it, and had
> helped spread it to at least four continents. African Clawed Frogs
> are carriers as well. One more piece of the complicated puzzle.
>
> Back to the issue relevant to this listserv, the odonate larvae
> eating the legs off of amphibian larvae. The study in question took
> place in three ponds in one county in England. The answer may be
> simple in this one small area. There is a LOT more research to do
> before odonates can be generally accepted as a single worldwide
> cause of amphibian limb shortages....
>
> Josh Rose, Ph.D.
> McAllen TX (but soon relocating to Amherst MA)
>
> On Jun 26, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Richard Rowe wrote:
>
>> Occam says 'go with predation' ... it is the simplest solution and
>> seems consistent with the scope and scale of the data. The
>> herpetology crowd have been very well funded on the basis of dire,
>> apocalyptic warnings revolving about 'canaries in coal mines'. The
>> 'vanishing frogs' events weren't because the system was collapsing
>> or UV radiation on mountain tops but due to a pandemic of an
>> invasive chytrid, most likely vectored by herpetologists; the
>> multilegs wasn't due to unspecified trace toxins but to a well-
>> recognised parasite ... By looking for exotic solutions they have
>> actually endangered their study animals. In Australia there was a
>> decade of discovering new and pristine habitats with healthy
>> populations of frogs, only for the frogs to go bust at the next
>> visit while everything else was doing just fine. Making haste
>> slowly could have been well worthwhile and saved a lot of frogs.
>>
>> I think we should sit with Occam until it is shown that some more
>> exotic solution is necessary.
>>
>> Lawson, Tamara wrote:
>
>>> This article is misleading as it makes the “answer” sound
>>> simplistic at best. My husband is a herpetologist (although he
>>> prefers to study snakes) and I’ve occasionally gone to meetings
>>> with him and sat in on some of the presentations. The
>>> overwhelming thought of most herpetologists that I’ve talked to
>>> (and Nova had a program on amphibians recently as well that stated
>>> this idea) is that THERE IS NO SINGLE CAUSE for the mutations (as
>>> well as the deaths) observed in amphibians. Research as shown
>>> that some chemicals (this includes man-made ones as well as some
>>> secreted by plants’ roots), some parasites (some worms, some
>>> fungi, as well as single-celled species, etc.), and some
>>> environmental factors (temperature extremes, salinity, predators,
>>> etc.) all contribute to current problem of amphibian deformities.
>>> The cause for the world-wide problem is just different in
>>> different bodies of water with some research showing multiple
>>> cumulative causes and even additive causes in the same pond. It
>>> all goes back to the old saying (or it should be a saying) “don’t
>>> look for simple answers in a complicated system”.
>>>
>>> Tamara Lawson, Science Lab. Manager
>>>
>>> From: odonata-l-bounces at listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces at listhost.ups.edu
>>> ] On Behalf Of Michael Blust
>>> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 9:10 AM
>>> To: odonata-l at listhost.ups.edu
>>> Subject: [Odonata-l] Frog legs and odonates - attempt #2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Legless Frogs Mystery Solved
>>>
>>> from BBC News Online
>>>
>>> Scientists think they have resolved one of the most controversial
>>> environmental issues of the past decade: the curious case of the
>>> missing frogs' legs.
>>>
>>> Around the world, frogs are found with missing or misshaped limbs,
>>> a striking deformity that many researchers believe is caused by
>>> chemical pollution.
>>>
>>> However, tests on frogs and toads have revealed a more natural,
>>> benign cause. The deformed frogs are actually victims of the
>>> predatory habits of dragonfly nymphs, which eat the legs of
>>> tadpoles.
>>>
>>> http://snipr.com/kx70t
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Michael Blust
>>> Dept. of Natural Science
>>> Green Mountain College
>>> Poultney, VT 05764
>>> 802-287-8331
>>> blustm at greenmtn.edu
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Richard Rowe
>> Zoology & Tropical Ecology
>> School of Marine & Tropical Biology
>> James Cook University
>> Townsville 4811
>> AUSTRALIA
>>
>> ph +61 7 47 81 4851
>> fax +61 7 47 25 1570
>> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
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